Why Working Less Won't Fix Burnout For Entrepreneurs

Building a business is the most confronting experience you will ever have. Don't do it alone. When you first become an entrepreneur, you you think

you know what to do because you stepped out of a successful role of some kind in your past. You know, get help. You need mentors. You need coaching.

They spent 30 years on the front lines of healthcare watching a lot of talented leaders burn out, check out, and some even walked away. But then they figured

out why and the answer had nothing to do with working less. Welcome back to the

root of all success. I am your host, the real Jason Duncan. This is episode number 351. And my guests, you heard that right.

There's two I don't have a list, but there's two guests today are Dr. Tracy Kristofferson and Michelle Troette. They

are co-founders of a company called Missing Logic. And it's uh the these ladies are going to some of the sharpest thinkers that we've come across in a

long time. And they know a problem that every entrepreneur knows personally. And that's the tension between building your

business and actually having a life. And for those of you who follow me outside of just the podcast, you know what I do for a living, you know that I talk about

this a lot, which is why I wanted these ladies on the show. So Tracy and Michelle have spent years studying why

driven and capable leaders burn out. And what they found is that most of us have been trying to solve the wrong problem.

And their framework polarity intelligence is the idea that uh some of the tensions that you're facing aren't problems to fix. They're actually

dynamics to manage. So once you understand the difference, everything is going to change. And they wrote a book on it. They literally wrote a book on it. and they host the Burnout Proof Leadership Podcast. So, Tracy Michelle,

welcome to the show.

Oh, thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here. We are Well, this is great. So, for my listeners, they know that I don't often have two guests at the same time. So,

this is going to be an interesting conversation,

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but uh we'll start here. Both of you have watched some brilliant and driven leaders totally burn out and walk away.

and you've been watching this for decades. And what I understand in my research getting ready for the show is that your conclusion is is is we have

been misdiagnosing the problem the whole time. And so I want to ask what are we actually dealing with here? What what is

this burnout thing? Why does why are we making the wrong diagnosis? And why does that wrong diagnosis end up making everything worse?

Well, because we approach so many things in life as a problem to solve. It doesn't matter what industry you're from, what role you're in, entrepreneur,

healthcare leader, we we are trained since we're children to just fix a problem. And so when it comes to burnout, everyone wants to point their

finger to something else. And coming up in health care, what Tracy and I recognized is everyone wanted to blame

the system a lot. Um but they didn't really recognize that we all have an individual accountability to it as well

and that there is this tension between personal responsibility and organizational responsibility and the

underlying tension is a polarity and I'll let Tracy explain to you what a polarity is. Yeah. So a polarity are

two interdependent values. They appear to be opposite or contradictory to each other, but they're actually in this

interdependent relationship. And so when you think about work and life as an example, the we really need the best of both,

right? We want the most successful career or business and we want a very fulfilling personal life. But we often

make false choices and we shift our attention to one and neglect the other.

And that's what starts to create the burnout. We're making a false choice. We need both, but we're not balancing our

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attention between the two um to get the best outcomes of both.

So when you when you use the word polarity, I'm going to make the educated assumption that all of us would understand the the poles on a magnet.

You know, there's a north south, not necessarily, but there's a positive and a negative, and there's polarity. So one attracts, one detracts. And so you're

talking about that's something that's going on inside us too, right? Is that what that means?

Oh yeah. It happens inside us and our personal lives. It h we all think left brain, right brain. That's an example of

a polarity in our mind, right? Sometimes some people are a little more rightrain and some are a little more leftrain. But we have to have both and they function

together to help us do all the cognitive and imaginative thinking that we need to do in our lives.

Yeah. and and you both have spent years working inside healthcare which is one of the most high pressure highstakes environments that there is. So what were

you seeing and what were you seeing that was happening to the best leaders in the world that made you think man this is this is bigger than just stress management? This is something different.

Oh yeah. Burnout has been going on forever in healthcare and that's what and it's always looked at as a problem and Tracy and I recognize that and

actually what what started it was a story about a one physician that committed suicide that really just broke

everyone's hearts and made you start wondering what is what was this really about. So when Tracy and I left health

care, at that point in time, 400 physicians a year were committing suicide. And I just read the other day,

it's up to 500. So this is still an underlying um you know, it's a problem.

What what people don't realize is we're not looking at it through the right lens. And we really have to have people

recognize how empowered they are to leverage polarities in their personal life. And then also it and also the

organization it's not an either or it's an and both. So we recognize that and we really left initially to help really deal with this clinician burnout.

Well you guys are not just only working with clinicians and leaders in the corporate world or in the healthcare world. You're also working a lot with entrepreneurs, right?

So when when entrepreneurs hear the word burnout,

uh a lot of them think the answer is just slow down or work less. But you're saying that isn't it? Um I I'll tell you a quick story. So yesterday I had a call

with a potential client, someone who reached out to me. We have a we have on our website something called the business burnout test. So you can go to

business burnoutest.com and it it's a questionnaire you take and it kind of demonstrates you know where you are in the level of burnout and it's aimed at entrepreneurs. So that's that's

something. So she took it. She's been reading my book. she calls and she is like on fire burnout like done this is

so bad and yet couldn't wouldn't make a decision to do anything you know that I said look do this and

this will work so what's what's actually causing this because it's not just about working less or slowing down what is actually causing it and and why do these

standard fixes don't stick well it really is a we're ingrained with

this either or mindset and it really stems back. We're indoctrinated with it.

You know, if this answer's right, that answer is wrong. If this is the right solution, that's the wrong solution. And

so, our minds think in these kind of in this eitheror pattern. I either have a successful business or I have a successful life. And we haven't learned

to retrain our brain to to think in terms of both. And and then we need a strategy. We need a framework, processes

to help us get the best of both. And people that are uh business owners,

leaders, right? Mostly high performers, type A, it's ingrained in them. Push,

drive, rest later. Just keep moving,

keep pushing. And so that's deeply ingrained in them. And what you have to do is step back and re-imagine your life

and re-imagine who you are in that life and start to shift those limiting beliefs and patterns that you have and

to develop newer patterns that are more framed in the both and that your personal life is equally as important as

your business or your leadership. One's not more important than the other. And if you want a high quality life, you have to have the best of both.

All right. So Michelle, give me give me a real example here. I want you to take something that an entrepreneur deals with every day. Say um like the tension

between staying hands-on in the business versus delegating and stepping back. How would polarity intelligence change the way that they handle that?

I think a great example of that, Jason,

is planning and execution. So a lot of entrepreneurs really are go-getters.

They start a business and they just go after it and then they get in the business and they're kind of like the all-star player in their business and they really don't back up. They don't

back up enough to recognize how important the planning aspect is and all the benefits of planning in advance,

taking that strategic thinking time,

stepping more into the role of the head coach of the business instead of being in the weeds and always executing and

executing. And you actually can map this out in a blueprint and um do really get

clear yourself on all the benefits if you plan as an entrepreneur so that you can then step through those execution

points or you know delegate it to a team is really what you want to do.

So I I am the uh I'm a founder and I get stuck in that loop just like anybody else.

I can delegate, then things go sideways,

I jump back in and I can't get out. What does your framework say is actually happening then in that situation? Well, you're swinging back and forth.

So, you give your attention to planning and you take your attention off of execution. So, you start to experience the negative consequence of that

overfocus. Then you swing your attention back to executing because you've been experiencing the loss of those benefits

of executing and you let go of the planning. So you're in this pendulum swing back and forth. And what we're saying is this is more like an infinity

loop. It's a dance between the two. And you need an what we do is help leaders and entrepreneurs create an early

warning system to know when they are overfocusing their attention in one area and neglecting the other. Remember,

these have to be in a dynamic dance with each other. You need a flow between the two. It's not focus on one, drop it,

then focus on the other. So, you're looking for that dynamic flow and signs when you're out of the flow state.

So, when you were talking earlier about this uh going from what they are to being the head coach of the business,

which I think is a pretty cool clever clever way to put it, one of the phrase that I use to describe the problem is called the hero syndrome. And I I talk

about this in my book about the hero syndrome is that that we want to put on the cape, swoop in and save the day. Because when we started,

that was how we did everything. And and it felt good and it was good to be needed, but unfortunately we stay in the

hero syndrome way too long. And and that that keeps us stuck and and we go from working on vision to putting out a fire,

working on vision to put out a fire.

We're going back and forth. What do you think about this idea of hero syndrome?

I know you you don't know my content as much as you know your own, of course. What do you think about that? It's the same thing.

Yeah, very similar. Very similar. And because you are playing the hero or you're being the all-star player,

running all the plays, doing all the things, you're not letting go enough of the things that you should be letting go of and giving your attention to the to the other elements that you can. So,

that's exactly what we're saying. What we're saying with the head coach is step back, coach your team up. You have a team, you have VAS, you have people that

are there to help you. You didn't hire them to have them watch you work, right?

You hired them to do the work. So, it's about coaching them up so that you can step further and further into that leader. And ultimately, we say you end up in the owner box.

Love it.

Where where your team works for you and with you. And that's the other element that I think you know when it comes to

polarities it's not just the knowing what when you have a problem or polarity but it's sitting in the tension of it and having healthy relationships and

being able to engage in meaningful conversation and that's how you can coach your team up so that they can meet

your expectations and fulfill um the obligations of the business.

All right, we're going to take a quick pause before we keep going in this great conversation about burnout. If you are getting value from this conversation, I

want to make sure you never miss an episode. Head over to youtube.com/therealjason Duncan, assuming you're not there right

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Duncan. Now, I want to talk about our sponsor for today's episode right before I get back to the conversation with Michelle and Tracy. And our sponsor

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So ladies, uh you built an entire company around this uh this concept and

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most business partnerships, especially ones built around shared intellectual frameworks, they eventually hit a wall.

So we got two partners here. What's the tension in your own partnership that you've had to learn to manage instead of fix?

Well, Michelle and I are a walking polarity.

So I think the tension has been Michelle holds more of what I would call a feminine energy. So she is more around vision and relationships those elements.

I am more the masculine energy. So I am the driver of the business kind of more the integrator the operations

productivity and um that was something we weren't aware of after 40 years of friendship.

we uh bumped into this tension between the two of us and began to realize that we were actually fighting a polarity

within our own relationship as leaders in our business.

So am I hearing you just say you just embraced the polarity and just realized that there are differences and you just okay with that?

Yeah, that's exactly what happened. So we were in business for a few years and you know in that beginning part you're just figuring it out. You're learning.

you're trying different things and uh Tracy and I were actually uh on a road trip together and we were in a hotel room together in California and she was

really frustrated about things not getting out the door and I was really wanting to go talk to people and we just had this moment and it was just like oh

my gosh we are a walking polarity this is what we are we've been friends all these time this time we've been teaching

this concept and here it is it is us and actually it was a huge relief like oh my gosh well all we got to do is lean into

it honor each other's differences figure out how to work together in different ways um and it has really made that

difference and I feel like we have been able to help so many entrepreneurs because we we live it on a daily basis

and we can help explain it um and and we'll always live with it but I think that was just a pivotal moment for us

when we realized realized that it the we were letting the tension get to us and really all we needed to do was lean into it and do that dance ourself. That's

what we've been doing now for several years.

Well, so let's say a leader who's listening to this, they hear all of this and they think, "Okay, that's fine, but I still got to make decisions. I still

got to pick a direction. I still have to commit." So, does your framework ever become an excuse to avoid making hard calls?

Oh, no. Oh, no. Not not not at all.

actually you know directive decision-m is necessary. The buck has to stop someplace and there are times when

somebody has to make a decision and there is a time when there needs to be participative decision-m because you

need the um the objective perspectives of other people that have had different experiences than you. So directive

decision- making and participative decision- making that's a polarity as well. So, it's never about not making a directive decision, but it is about

knowing when that needs to happen and when you need participation in your decision- making. Yeah.

So, what does a leader look like who's actually living this out? Well, I mean,

versus one who's heard the language and maybe learned the language but hasn't really made the shift.

I would say they truly are dynamically balanced in all aspects of their life.

they um they know when to shift their energy or you know to other parts of their life that might be calling them

without dropping the other component. Um so they're able to just really make wise decisions in the moment. I think these

leaders too they ask different questions because they see both polls, they see both perspectives. They have a very

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holistic view at home and in their business. So they they really they're very wise and they ask really great

questions as well. And I think they're masters at relationships.

Yeah. I would say they lean into tension.

Yeah. Because it's about leveraging tension, not letting tension go. So they really lean into the tension to learn from it. And they lean into resistance because there is wisdom in resistance.

And resistance usually can you know it can often times represent a wisdom you don't have and a representation of a poll that you are not considering.

What is uh and I want both of you to answer this uh I'm hoping that you both have different answers although it's probably going to be similar. What's

something that you used to believe about leadership or even about burnout that you flat out don't believe anymore?

H. Yeah, that's a great question.

Well, I think I've always believed this,

but like I would say Jason, I believe it even more now. And that um is really everyone's a leader. Doesn't matter your

role. Even in our company with different roles and different you know what people would think of levels

everyone steps up in a leadership role to contribute their part. So I think looking at people as the leader and the

potential in them is is really something that I truly believe.

I think for me it's that you have to work hard and sacrifice to be successful. I just flat out do not

believe that. I think I I think that's just uh something we've been indoctrinated with as leaders, as entrepreneurs.

And I think you can be very successful without the hustle and the grind and the sacrifice.

Amen. Amen. That everybody needs to hear that because that's we've been taught the lie is that the hustle and grind is

what does it. we we we we uh make that the goal is you just got to hustle and grind and that's just not absolutely not true.

Um okay so let me let me kind of shift to the core theme of the show. The show is called the root of all success

and uh what do you believe has been the one key that has unlocked success for the two of you more than anything else?

Well for me I would say dynamic balance.

Again, it's that being in that flow and the balance between the tensions that we feel personally in our relationship with each other, but also within our company.

So, maintaining that balance between the polarities that exist that will always be there and being very vigilant about managing that.

Michelle, what do you think?

I would I would say just also being um being really aligned with your values and what your strengths are. So, even

though Tracy and I are opposite, I think um you know, just really embracing the things that are my preference polls and

what I really value dearly and being aligned to those while also contributing to the two of us and where our company's

going and how we work in partnership has been definitely a secret to success.

So, Michelle, how do you personally define that word success?

Um well I define it as um just feeling joyful and waking up every day and

loving what you do and doing what you love.

So by that definition, do you consider yourself successful? Absolutely.

Well, Tracy, I'm going to ask you the same thing. How do you personally define success?

Well, for me, it's being 1% better today than I was yesterday. I'm about growth and evolution. If my thinking is

expanding, if I'm growing, if I'm learning, then I consider my that I'm successful. And yes, I am very successful. I have learned more about

myself in the last eight years and grown more than I ever thought possible.

So, what if you had to take all that you guys have learned over the last, you know, couple of decades doing this

stuff? What's your best piece of advice today for an entrepreneur listening to this show?

I would say don't do it alone. When you first become an entrepreneur, you you think you know what to do because you stepped out of a successful role of some

kind in your past. And I would just say that, you know, get help. You need mentors. You need coaching. You need to

learn from people that are two, three steps ahead of you that have already walked this path. And so I think that's

critically important because you can't you have blind spots, right?

You don't know where all the holes are until you start taking this journey. So definitely to not go alone and get support.

All right, Tracy, anything different other than that?

Yeah, I would say building a business is the most confronting experience you will ever have. So, I say

that you really have to think about your identity as a business owner, what that means to you, what characteristics you

need to embody to get the success you're looking for, and really look at your beliefs and how those might be holding you back. It's really your what I call

your internal operating system that will drive your success. So, the sooner you can focus on that, the more successful

you'll be and the faster you'll be successful.

All right, as we get ready to close our conversation, I've got a few rapid fire questions that I want to ask you and I'm going to let each of you answer them,

but we're going rapid fire. So, first thing comes to your mind, let's get on it. Are you ready? Sure. Sure. All right, Tracy, you get the first one.

A leader that you'd shadow, you'd want to shadow for a full week, dead or alive, any field? Barack Obama.

All right. What about you, Michelle? Um, I would do Ben Carson.

All right. Two very different people. Two very different people. All right.

Uh, Tracy, one book besides your own that every burnedout entrepreneur needs to read.

Oh, geez. Um. Oh. Oh my gosh.

See, Michelle's getting more time to think about this.

I know. Let her Let her answer. I'll come in.

This one's She gets to go first on the next one. Uh, let them. I would say let them. Let them. Oh, I don't know this book.

This is What's What's this? Tell me.

Oh, no. Mel Robbins. Telling you about Mel Robbins. Oh, so she is her book. Yeah. Oh, okay.

All right, Michelle, what about you? One book besides your own that every burnout entrepre Oh, besides my own. Yes, besides your own.

Well, yeah.

Um, well, the first book that came to my mind was uh traction because the visionary integrator is a polarity in itself.

Yeah. Okay. All right. So, Michelle, you get the next two first. So, then Tra has a little time to think about these.

So, what's what's one thing that most people would never guess about you from your professional bio?

Oh my gosh.

I have a loud laugh and she backs away from the microphone,

folks, when she laughs. So, you're She's telling the truth.

All right. What about you, Tracy? What's one thing most people would never guess about you from your per professional bio? that I'm an introvert.

Say that again. Your your mic went really low on that one for some reason. I'm an introvert. Introvert. Okay.

All right. All right. Michelle, this and Tracy, last question. Uh Michelle, first best piece of advice that you ever got.

Who gave it and what did they say?

Oh my gosh. Best piece of advice I ever got. Um,

why is this so hard? Because I get so much advice from so many people. That's why. Oh my gosh, this is just really amazing.

Um,

you know, I guess I just want to say probably my husband who just has said follow your heart. Just follow your gut.

Follow your heart and everything will be okay.

Nice. What about you, Tracy? best piece of advice you ever got and who gave it to you and what they say.

Yeah, I would say from my husband as well, uh, just trust yourself. Trust yourself.

Nice. You guys aren't married to the same person, right? This No, but we are a forsome.

Our husbands are best friends, too. So,

well, uh, it's been a pleasure having you ladies talk about this and I really want to encourage my audience specifically to go look into your stuff

because my audience probably more than most entre most shows that you guys might guest on. This is what we talk about. We talk about burnout. We talk

about being a hero. We talk about how to, as my book title says, exit without exiting. We talk about how to how to get out of the weeds. This is what we talk

about in my client circle. So, this has been an interesting conversation. So, go to missinglogic.com, everyone. That's missinglogic.com.

And you can follow them on LinkedIn uh at missinglogic LLC. You can look them up there. Uh and you can f find Michelle

Trott and Tracy Christopherson both on LinkedIn. We'll have the links in the show notes. We'll make sure that that gets in the show notes to find them.

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Ladies, I'm going to give you the last word. What would you like to say as we close out for today?

I would just say don't eliminate tension from your life. Learn how it works and and leverage it.

All right, Tracy,

stay the course. Stay the course and get off the field. Get off the field. Coach your people. They're there for you.

Good. Well, thank you so much both of you for being on the show today. It's been a pleasure. And thank you listeners for listening. This has been The Root of All Success, episode number 351 with Dr.

Tracy Christopherson and Michelle Troette, co-founders of Missing Logic, and I want you to go uh check that out.

And Polarity Intelligence, they wrote this book called Polarity Intelligence.

So, go check out that book. I think you're going to like it. Um, don't stay burned out. You know, as I was told a

long time ago, awareness is the key to recovery. So, you've got to be aware of it. So, as soon as you become aware that burnout is a real thing, then you need

to go take a look at that. What can you do to get past that? and lean into the tension of it as they have we talked about. There's some polarity in there.

What what's the ying and yang? What's the positive and negative in that? Well, how are you going to go back and forth?

And if you need help with that, go talk to Michelle. Go talk to Tracy. Reach out to them at missinglogic.com.

Thank you again for tuning in for this episode of the root of all success.

Please make sure you tune in again next time when I talk with yet another one or two very successful entrepreneurs about their uh their story of success. And until then, as always, I am your host,

the real Jason Duncan, and Jesus is king. Attention business owners.

Attention business owners.

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business burnout test at businessburnouttest.com to discover where you stand. With just 10 quick questions, you'll learn how to

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Thank you for listening to another edition of The Root of All Success with the Real Jason Duncan. If you've enjoyed this week's episode, visit the

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