Why the Right Words Won't Win the Sale

You know, most salespeople are optimizing the wrong game.

They're perfecting mechanics, like the right words, the process, the timing.

But the real game is being decided long before they ever even open their mouth.

Bill Caskey has spent 35 years watching this pattern play out, and he says it's the costliest mistake that a sales team could make.

Well, welcome to the Real Jason Duncan podcast.

I'm your host, of course, Jason Duncan.

And every week on this show, we talk to people who built something real, whether it's in business or in leadership or in their own lives.

And we ask them the same question.

What did you used to believe that turned out to be wrong?

And I believe that the gold is the lie.

And here's what I mean by that.

Every guest on this show is here because they believe something that looked

like the path to abundance.

And that belief built a cage for them, a golden cage.

It's gold on the outside, but it's locked on the inside.

And somewhere along the way, these people figured out that there was a truth that would let them, let them escape that.

And today, today's conversation is about one of those lies and the cost of believing it.

So for years, the sales world, I've been in sales for a long time.

Bill, who's our guest, has been in sales for a long time.

But the sales world has operated from a single assumption that says, if you say the right things and you follow the right processes in front of the right prospect, success is inevitable.

If you just master the mechanics, if you perfect the pitch, if you control the conversation, if you do all that, your life is going to be great because you're going to make a lot of money.

You're going to be a great salesperson.

But the problem is, it doesn't.

It's not even close.

And today, we're talking to someone who spent four decades inside the sales training world

And he finally realized what was actually missing.

And his answer will either confirm what you already suspect, or it's going to shake the foundation of how you've been doing sales and how you've been training your teams in sales.

So our guest is Bill Caskey.

He's a sales development leader and a strategist who has been training

business to business sales teams and executives since 1990.

He's the author of Same Game, New Rules, which by the way, you should go read the books.

Really good one.

Rewired the Sales Mind and the Sales Playbook.

He also hosts the Advanced Selling Podcast and the Bill Caskey Podcast.

And I'll say a little plug for the Advanced Selling Podcast.

They've been doing this now for almost 20 years.

And it is the podcast I've recommended more than any other podcast, the Advanced Selling Podcast.

You should go listen to it.

But what matters for today's conversation, ladies and gentlemen, is this.

Bill has spent 35 years watching sales teams win and lose, and he's finally figured out why most of them never break through.

Bill, welcome back to the show.

Jason, thank you.

It's always a pleasure.

I was on episode 77, I think you said earlier before we went.

That was 300 episodes ago.

So I better be I better have improved since then.

Yeah, I think I think you age like a nice fine wine.

It's great.

It's going to be really good.

It's good to have you back.

Well, it's really good.

And you have a lot to do with the fact that I have this podcast.

I don't I don't know if we've talked about that last time, but, you know, I remember I had a lawnmowing company and I was also starting my lighting company back about.

It was in 2010, 2011, and I started List of Podcasts while I was on the lawnmower.

Yours was one that I found, and I've been a fan of that ever since.

And it kind of influenced me indirectly to do my own show.

So it's been almost four years since you've been on the show.

A lot has changed.

We changed the format a little bit.

But before we dive into what you've learned since we last talked, I want to put something on the tape that I think every salesperson listing

right now probably needs to hear.

And that's this.

You came into this conversation with one lie that you wanted to expose, because that's what we do.

We reach out, say, what lie do you want to expose?

And this was what you said.

The lie is sales is a game of mechanics.

That's the lie.

And it says that if we say the right thing, do the right thing in front of the prospects, life is going to be abundant.

But the reality that you've landed on after all these years of training teams,

is that sales achievement is actually a game of mindset plus strategy and leverage and mechanics, of course.

Mechanics are in the mix, but most people start with mechanics and you start much earlier in that timeline.

So I want you to take us back.

When did you first believe that mechanics were enough in sales?

Well, first off, I want to apologize.

I've got a guy who's doing the floors here, and you're probably hearing what sounds like a dental office downstairs.

It is not.

It is a guy.

And I thought he was done sanding.

And I asked him earlier today, but he's not.

So hopefully you can tolerate that.

It's all good.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I wasn't very good at sales.

I mean, that's my whole story is I was terrible at it.

I was always near the middle to the bottom of the stack rank as back when they used to have the stack rank of salespeople in the hallway.

And out of 13 salespeople, I was always 7, 8, 9, 10.

And I never really knew why.

I never knew how to do it.

Nobody really ever taught me the finer points of sales.

It was more go out and make calls, here's our product, go sell it.

And so thus it was all a mechanics game.

It was, what do I say?

How do I say it?

When do I say it?

What happens if they say this?

What happens if they say, yeah, what happens if they object?

What happens if there's price?

It was all very mechanical that I learned.

And my manager would say, well, if they hesitate on price, here's what you say.

And trying to keep all these things in my brain was really hard.

But I got to the point where mechanically I was pretty good, but I never really rose up the stack rank.

I was mechanically better, but I was still 10th, you know.

And so I realized that at some point that I was going to have to

changed my ways.

I was going to have to really understand what it takes to be successful in this profession that I've chosen to be in.

And I really didn't want to leave because I enjoyed the free time and the money and all that good stuff.

But I was frustrated because I really wasn't making much progress.

And so I started to buy CDs back then and back then actually cassette tapes.

You don't know what those are, Jason, you're too young, but these cassette tape magazines and

And the more I studied sales, the more I realized that, you know, the people who are really making it aren't that better mechanically than I am.

But they're doing some, they're thinking differently.

They show up differently.

They're positioning themselves differently.

When they walk into a room, they attract attention versus shrink and kind of be fearful.

And so I started to really understand the mindset, the mindset part of sales.

And now I don't even...

I don't even think about sales.

I think about sales achievement.

You know, if you have a territory or you have a business, it's not just about selling one person something.

It's about how do I organize my life and my mind and my affairs so that I can scale my business and take my income from whatever it is to 2X, 3X, 5X, whatever.

And that doesn't come from mechanics.

You can't mechanic your way to 5X income.

You just can't.

Because you can only get so good at that.

Yeah, well, but still, most of the sales training world is built on that assumption.

They sell courses on objection handling, or closing techniques, or discovery frameworks, and it's all mechanics.

So what did you see happening to the teams that were following that model that finally made you realize, hey, man, this game's played somewhere else.

This is not-- we're talking deep in the process.

We should start earlier.

Well, it started with me introducing this concept of detachment.

And I've talked about this, so this is not new news, but I have a recovery, a rehabilitation background.

Alcohol was my drug of choice, and I was knee deep or neck deep into that in my 20s, and I've been sober 30 some years now, so I'm grateful for that.

But that was the first time I started to hear about this idea of letting go and letting God.

And that was kind of a mantra, NAA.

All these problems that you have that you think the best way to navigate them is to drink.

You got to let these problems go and let God handle these problems.

And I wasn't much of a...

of a spiritual guy back then.

But when you have when you're facing kind of a life death thing like you are with alcoholism, you kind of get spiritual pretty quickly.

And so I started to try to understand, well, what is letting it go mean?

Because, hey, we're in an environment where we need the business and we have to make our quota and we, you know, we have goals and objectives and targets and what's this letting it go thing ain't going to work.

And the more I studied it, the more I realized, oh, no, that is the master key to accomplishing those goals, is the ability to detach from the outcomes so that I can be free in the process.

If I'm too worried about whether a person is going to buy from me or not, or whether this launch is going to be successful, I will filter everything through fear.

And when things are filtered through fear, they're not you're not working at your best.

You're just not doing your best.

And so I found that the more we were able to detach from the outcomes, which had nothing to do with mechanics.

So I'm pivoting back to that.

When we could detach from the outcomes, people liked us more.

People believed us.

We weren't we weren't uptight.

You know, we were speaking in a fluent manner.

You know, our our voice voices were not going high because we were really nervous.

We were just being ourselves.

And when you're yourself, you were at your best.

And so I really dug into this concept of detachment.

I work some other things on mindset, but that was

That was the time where, and everybody came back to me and said, Oh my God, my life has changed totally.

My business life, sales are way up, and it all becomes, all comes from detachment.

I just ran into a guy at, it wasn't Chipotle's, but one of these fast food places.

And he was a client of mine in 2024.

And he came up to me and said, Bill, you don't remember me?

And I did.

I said, Yeah, Jeff, what's going on?

He said, You know, I had my best year ever last year.

I had a 50% increase in revenue and income because I'm paid on that.

And he says, I can tell you it's one thing, detachment.

It wasn't mechanics.

We talked about mechanics a lot.

It was just when I go in now, I have no expectation.

I don't really care whether the customer works with me or not.

I would like them to, but that's their decision.

It's really our decision.

But he said, my whole predisposition changed.

And he says, I've, you know, 50% increase in business.

And people ask me, hey, what happened?

He says, I'm almost embarrassed to tell them, well, I don't care anymore.

But it's not that.

It's that he's in a healthy state of detachment from the outcome.

So over the years, I've realized that that's a crucial part of being successful and it's counterintuitive, obviously.

Well, you taught me this.

listening to your podcast.

And I think subsequently I hired you for an engagement to come and help do some sales coaching with me and my team.

At one point, I remember we were working at a hospital in Indianapolis, which you're based in the Indy area.

So that's where we met in person at time.

But you taught me this, this idea about detachment, this idea of being, and you said you qualified that by saying healthy.

healthy detachment because I have I have been in the sales calls I actually was in one last week you know I was being sold to and uh the guy was like so aloof and ambivalent didn't care like not healthy he didn't say this but he he was like I don't give one flying rip if you ever do business with me that was his idea and I don't think that's healthy and that's not what you're talking about no no but but does isn't that hard to do though I mean

I found it really, really hard.

I had the best year ever last year, and I'm having this, my year didn't start the best.

And I don't know if it's my mindset shifted wrong, but how do we detach?

Because that's not a mechanic thing.

That's a mindset thing.

Yeah, it is.

I think you have to, first off, you have to trust that it's going to be, that will be a beneficial

predisposition.

You have to trust that there's gold in that hill, you know, and if you don't, if you say, well, I'll try it, but I don't think it's going to work.

It's not about working.

It's not about because sometimes people take detachment as a mechanic.

They say, well, if I just say to the prospect, you know what, if you don't do business with me, that's fine.

Well, that's the mechanical expression of it, but it's deeper than that.

I want to all the way through the process, I'm detached.

And I just got off a call here yesterday with a guy who we had a proposal out and it was for start in June.

His dad had some heart issues, so he had to fly to Europe and spend time with his dad.

And so everything got kind of dragged out, which is fine.

I mean, that happens.

And so finally I said, look, Bob,

I kind of get the feeling that the proposal I sent you didn't really hit it out of the park.

And so we have one of two options.

Either we can just say, you know what, Bill, I'm going to hit pause right now.

I don't want to do this.

I thought I did, but I don't.

Or we can come back and say, is there a way to refigure the proposal to make it more advantageous for you?

And he stopped me kind of mid-sentence and goes, look, we're not going anywhere because we're going to do this.

I don't care what anybody says.

We are going to do

this.

So don't go anywhere.

You know, he came at me then, because I really don't care whether he does business with me, but I do want an answer.

I don't want to drag it out and just, you know, go go into the cricket stage.

So I think detachment has to happen all the way through the process.

And it has to be something you have in your heart.

You're having your in your DNA and your bones, not a mechanical thing.

And I think once you believe that detachment really frees you up, it

It's really the best freeing mechanism you can find is that when you're not entangled with any kind of results or enslaved by the result, it just frees you up.

And I could hear people listening to this right now saying, Okay, well, so what do I say to make them understand that I'm detached?

Which is the opposite of what we're talking about.

That's a mechanic thing.

No, but I think you have to express it.

I think you can't just be detached and hope the customer kind of realizes that.

I think it's healthy to say,

Upfront, look, I appreciate you inviting me in.

I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Here's what I know.

Sometimes as we go through this conversation, we're going to realize that it's not really a fit.

And if that's the case, you and I both need to have the ability to say, you know what, not right now.

Or the other thing that could happen is there's a reason to go forward.

I'm good with any answer.

Are you?

Yep, I'm good with any answer.

And you've laid the groundwork now, so that's out of the way.

But what you don't want to do after that is start pitching, start selling, and start being scared and afraid.

Because then he or she is going to say, wait a minute, up front, you said this.

Now you're not acting like this.

Oh, I see what's happening.

You're a con artist.

That's what you are.

So I don't want to be a con artist.

Well, and certainly none of us do, although we are in a profession with lots of them.

I think the interesting part about that, what you just said, Bill, is you use the word scared.

And really this idea of detachment is an abundance mindset versus scarcity mindset.

Don't you believe him?

And I can point to times in my life as a business owner who has to do sales for a living.

Like that's part of what we do as a coach and a mastermind.

You know, as I run a mastermind, I've got to sell that, you know, it's just part of the deal.

But when I'm coming at things from a scarcity mindset,

I'm not going to reveal everything right now, but it's not because it's not about me.

But I'm telling you, Bill, every time I come at something from a scarcity mindset, it never works out every single time.

And I've had that happen to me recently.

Something happened.

I was acting out of scarcity.

It blew up.

And I'm trying to put all the pieces back together, analyzing what the hell I did wrong.

And I look at that and go, oh, I was scared.

I was scarce.

And you can't detach if you're scared.

That's pretty self-aware that you can admit that to, at least to yourself.

That's a pretty, because that's hard for people to admit fear really is.

Well, you and the other 12 people listening, we all now know my dirty truth.

Well, you know, I was listening to a preacher the other day, and I like to listen to pastors and preachers and hear how they

not just their interpretation of the Bible and faith, but also just how they tell stories and things.

And I heard this one guy say, he says, the law of scarcity started in the Garden of Eden.

And he says, when the serpent said to Eve, oh, you can't, you know, surely that won't hurt you if you eat off the knowledge of the, or the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And the idea there is that God, if you believe the story, God gave them everything in the garden, everything.

There was gold in the garden, there was fruit, there was just everything was there.

But that wasn't enough for Eve.

She had to have the fruit, the forbidden fruit.

And sometimes we live our life that way.

Like, you know, we have all these things, but, oh man, I want that thing.

And we're willing to give up everything to get that thing.

It's like, wait a minute, that thing is a small thing compared to what we have.

And yet it's human nature.

It's just like scarcity and attachment are just human nature.

Well, I want to take a break, but when we come back, I want to dig in more about this scarcity thing, because what's interesting is that when people go to hire

sales coaches, which is what you do, sales training and development, is they're mostly hiring you for the mechanics.

And I think they're probably very surprised to know that it's a lot more about mindset and the scarcity and abundance things.

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All right, so Bill, as we get back into this, you know, like I said before the break,

A lot of entrepreneurs, business owners, sales teams, they're looking for you for your expertise.

Teach us how to do a discovery call, teach us what questions to ask, teach us how to put our slide deck together, teach us how to close, teach us to handle objections.

Those are all mechanics, and those are all important.

Obviously, you got to know how to do those things.

But you figured out something that...

That's not what sales is about.

There's something more.

It's this mindset thing.

How do you teach it?

How do you teach this mindset and transfer what you know after your years of experience into the person who just wants another closing or objection handling technique?

Well, you're exactly right.

That is why people bring people like me in.

is they feel like they've either ridden with their people and they've watched them in interaction and they say, oh man, we're just not saying the right things or we're not doing or we're not handling things very well.

And so they call me and I've had almost all of them.

Never does somebody call and say, hey, I don't think we're thinking properly about sales.

They never say that.

They just want mechanic help.

But

I believe that if you teach people how mindset really affects their mechanics and really affects their business, people pick up on it.

It's almost like a sixth sense.

We all know that our beliefs influence our action, our thinking influences our beliefs.

We all know that.

But until a guy like me or somebody like me comes along and says, I'm not going to teach you mechanics until we get your mind right.

because you're not going to be able to use my mechanics if you don't have the right mind.

When I tell you to go say this, if you're scared and feeling attached and fearful, you're not going to be able to use that.

So I can't even teach you mechanics until you get your head on straight about what sales is, what your role is.

You know, the number one.

One of the things that I teach early is, what's the role of the salesperson today?

Is it to persuade and convince and pitch and present and secure business?

Or is it to guide people?

Is it to guide people along a path from where they are, where the prospect is, maybe they're in pain, maybe they're not, but generally they have some kind of problem, all the way to the promised land, to the destination.

And if you can change your orientation for your role,

away from salesperson to guide.

And I learned this from Donald Miller StoryBrand.

And a lot of people talk about this is not just his, but that's where I really got it.

You know, kind of really studied it.

And that one thing, if you can just get that in your mind that, no, I'm not here to pitch or present, I'm here to guide.

If they don't want my guidance, I'm off.

I'll go find somebody else who does.

But if you change your your position, they will see you accordingly.

as a guide.

And for a guide, they don't have to resist the guide because the guide's helping them.

The guide's on their team, not trying to sell them anything, just trying to guide you from where you are to where you want to be.

And so that's an example.

People buy into that.

I don't get a whole lot of pushback on that, but that's an example of teaching.

Yeah.

So have you had anybody who said, Look, I don't want to deal with this mindset crap.

I just want you to tell me how to close.

Have you ever had that happen?

Yeah.

What do you do with that?

Well, if it's a if it's a salesperson and their manager is in the room, in the digital room, then I will connect with their manager and say, we either got to get Jason out because he's going to he's going to be toxic for the group, or you need to talk to him.

And if you talk to him and it doesn't make sense, let me talk to him.

But we're not going to deal with this the whole time.

Because I can't have people, 14 people in a room and one toxic dude, that ain't gonna work.

'Cause now everybody, especially if he's a leader, well, you know, Jason says that and Jason's our best salesperson, I don't care.

I don't care.

So that's how I deal with it is I don't try to fight with people in group sessions 'cause that never works out well for anybody.

But we gotta call it, we can't just gloss over it, somebody's gonna call it out.

You know, you wrote, and I think you had two other people that you collaborated with to write a guide on emailing a long time ago called e-mail It.

And I have used those e-mail templates a gazillion times over the years.

And one of those e-mail templates, or maybe there were a couple of different versions, was what is affectionately referred to as the breakup e-mail, where, and you illustrated this a little bit ago with this Bob guy you were referring to, even though I don't know if you did that in an e-mail, I think it sounded like it was a live call, but that is as a mechanic around a mindset.

And the mindset is, look, I've positioned myself as a guide, as a helper,

this person has not responded, you know, and you're doing this in e-mail.

So I'm gonna give them an opportunity to say, A, A, I'm ready.

You know, let's move forward.

B.

You know what?

Priorities have shifted and I don't want to do this.

Or I think your proposal was so stupid or off base, I don't even want to respond to you.

And what you say in the e-mail is a version of these three things and say, look, if I don't hear from you by Friday at 5:00 or whatever, I'm going to assume it's one of those two things and we just don't need to talk anymore.

And that to me was such a cool mechanic thing.

But it took me a while to learn later.

It really isn't about mechanics.

Because if you send that and you're scared and you actually follow up after you say you're never going to follow up again, you're the pursuer and the pursuers don't win in the sales game.

I love that.

Have you updated that document, that guide?

Because that was a really good one.

We get sales on that thing every week because it's still hanging out there.

But that's been, I don't know, years and years.

No, I don't.

Now, we probably should do another one.

where we talk about subject lines, 'cause subject lines are really how people decide whether they're gonna open an e-mail.

But no, it was, you know, we're not gonna redo that probably.

But, you know, the problem with e-mail, when we're doing the breakup via e-mail is there's so much tonality that it doesn't get picked up in an e-mail.

that does get picked up if you're having a live conversation.

And so I'm not crazy about the breakup e-mail unless there's a conversation that has happened where we express our, you know, frustration or whatever we express.

But I know people like to resort to e-mail because it's easy and I don't have a lot of investment in it.

But I would rather talk to somebody live, and I'm sure you would too.

See, the problem is sometimes we take an e-mail like that from e-mail it and we cut and paste it.

And then at the bottom we get needy again.

And I always say, but if you do want to talk, I'd love to talk with you because, man, we got some great promotions going on.

I'd love to.

I'm going to be available tomorrow.

Are you available tomorrow?

And it threw us off the whole the whole vibe of being detached when we get needy.

Yeah.

Well, I've got a mentor of mine, business coach that has taught me and, and I, it's a mechanic thing, but again, it's tied back to the mindset because you can't pull this off unless your mindset's right.

And he said, you never say things like, I would love to talk to you.

You know, just using that word love.

I agree.

It, it makes you the pursuer.

And in a sales, in a sales dynamic where you're the one who has the expertise, you're trying to help someone get to a conclusion or outcome that they want.

or you assume that they want.

Man, I would love to help you.

It's an honor to be able to help.

It just puts you so far below them, they're never going to see you as an expert.

And again, that's a mindset thing too, don't you think?

Yes, it is.

It is.

So what are the mindsets?

Well, number one, it's detachment is I have to believe that my life goes on and I'm not going to pay a big long range penalty if they decide not to work with me or if I decide not to work with them.

I mean, it's got to be mutual.

Sometimes you might find somebody listening may say, you know, I got to detach from them because it's not healthy, it's not a good fit.

So you got to be able to do that.

The second thing is being the guide.

I think that's a great mindset shift just to give people some hard and fast shifts to make.

The third thing is, is this notion of abundance versus scarcity, that the market is abundant.

And why is the market abundant?

Because pain is abundant.

Pain is everywhere.

And I'm not talking about geopolitical pain, although that's it.

But I'm talking in your marketplace, I'm working with a company that sells research to research

systems to large companies and they have what's called unified customer experience system.

And right now, and the pain in that area is huge because companies have all these systems that are trying to talk to each other and they don't really understand voice of customers.

So they're not getting, and these guys have come up with something that can mesh all those together and really provide you with proper insight and interpretation of the data.

Well, there's plenty of pain.

They don't have to go outside of Indianapolis to find companies that have that kind of pain.

And so I think the world is abundant.

I think that's a really good mindset to have.

Even if you don't like your job right now, if you say, you know, I'm probably a six out of 10 on loving what I do, well, there's an abundance of other opportunities.

You know, career opportunities are everywhere.

Every company I know is looking for people.

that there's an I just believe in this concept of abundance.

And those are the three areas that I think are really important.

Well, once again, Bill, you've been in the background of my life being a mentor, you know, by proxy through your podcasts and the books that you've written, because this idea of abundance and scarcity and detachment, which I think are all tied into the same thing, is is something that you were the first person to teach me.

I went through my first real sales

jobs in my early 20s were selling insurance, selling health and life insurance to small business owners.

And I remember going through those trainings and they were great trainings, but they were all mechanics.

It was like, this is how you open a conversation.

This is how you close a conversation.

These are the closing techniques.

This is how you overcome these objections.

And those are all necessary.

And again, I don't want to belittle that.

You need those things.

But but when I started to listen to your podcast, it was a totally different game, which whole new game, you know, the thing, you know, your book.

But I think same game, new rules.

This is this idea of abundance and scarcity and detachment.

I think if if our listeners could get anything out of this, the lie is that sales is all about mechanics.

And that is not true.

It really is about abundance and scarcity, mindset and detachment.

And if you are interested in learning about that,

I definitely want to encourage listeners to go check out the Advanced Selling podcast, read the books that Bill's written.

It's good stuff.

Bill, what do you know, Bill, that now, like after doing this for 35 years that you wish someone had told you 20 years ago?

Well, I wrote down something that I was going to follow up on what you said, and coincidentally enough, I think it's what I've learned.

And that is there are two other lies, kind of sub lies under this, and one is there's not enough

and you're not enough.

There's not enough speaks to scarcity and abundance.

There's just not enough in the marketplace.

You know, there's just not enough prospects.

There's not enough people paying.

There's not enough money.

That's a lie.

That is just a flat out lie.

Now, how you're positioning yourself to capture that might be the problem, but there is enough.

There's more than enough.

And the second part of that is you're not enough.

And that speaks to an entirely different lie of who are you?

And how are you expressing that, who you are in the world?

And I don't find we spend enough time at all on that whole identity thing.

You know, who am I?

What am I here to do?

What's my divine assignment?

What's my purpose of being either in this business I'm in or on this planet in general?

And I think if you believe in abundance, you will say, you will answer the question, oh, you're enough, just as you are.

You don't have to learn anything else.

You're good.

You're all right.

Now we have to believe that because until we believe it, the marketplace won't believe it.

And so I think those two sub lies are there's not enough and you're not enough.

And that's one thing I learned over the years is that now there is enough.

That's an easier thing to answer than you're not enough because that's pretty personal.

You know, I think we just have to all conclude, you know what?

I'm good.

I'm God's child.

I'm good the way I am now.

I want to improve and I want to deploy my assets and all that.

But we got to get out of this not enoughness because it will ravage your soul.

I mean, when you think about all the-- I just heard a friend of mine had a friend of his who committed suicide.

A guy, 45 years old, three kids, three little girls, great job, fit, didn't feel like he was enough.

And it's that kind of stuff that I think we can make a difference in the world if we say, no, you are enough.

I think that those are some really great messages.

How much do you think that your spiritual journey has impacted your thinking around this idea of abundance and scarcity and detachment?

100%.

You know, you and I have talked about that, I think, in the past, and I've

I've always been a secular guy with a spiritual dimension, and I feel like I try to live my life according to the commandments in the Bible.

But I think recently, in the last five to seven years, I've really gone a lot heavier into the spiritual domain.

And I think that's the answer to a lot of our problems, even our business problems.

And when I ask people before I work with them, I will always ask, what is your faith walk?

Do you have a faith at all?

90% of the time, what do you think people say?

Oh, yeah, I'm spiritual.

Something like that, probably.

Yeah, but I dabble in it.

Yeah, I have one, but I don't really deploy it.

I don't really study it.

I don't really go to church.

So 90% of us know that success is a spiritual has a spiritual dimension to it, but it scares us a little bit.

It scares us.

And so my goal is to bring some of this fear down, say, look, it's okay.

Even if you don't believe in in a higher power or God, it's okay.

Do you have faith in the in the world, in the marketplace?

And do you have do you have belief in yourself?

I mean, that's spiritual.

So yeah.

Well, before we close, Bill, I want to give you one minute, and I'm not going to interrupt you, and I want you to tell the world as directly and passionately as you can what the lie is that we're exposing in this episode, why people have been believing it, and what the truth actually is.

So it's all yours.

Yeah, I think the lie of sales success is dependent upon your sales mechanics and your conduct.

is a lie because it starts way before then, as you said in the preamble to this.

It starts with, who do you think you are?

Who do you believe yourself to be?

What is your role on this planet?

What's your assignment?

What is your divine assignment?

Because all that stuff figures into what you say when you get in front of prospects.

And it does.

And even if you say the same thing, you might say it in a different way if you're well connected to some of those more spiritual concepts.

And I think if we don't if we don't accept that we've been we've either accepted that lie or we've been lied to about what success means, it becomes really hard for us to jump out of that paradigm, out of that box and get to another level of of success, which I think we all deserve.

Tell people how to find you, Bill.

Yeah, best way is go to billcaskey.com, C-A-S-K-E-Y.

We do monthly webinars there.

And right at the very top, you'll see the webinar scheduled.

And we're scheduling one for, we do them twice a month, usually, sometimes once a month in the summer.

But it's called the 2X Leverage Workshop.

And I teach you how to 2X your business by bringing some of these concepts and especially leverage into the equation.

Final question.

If someone listening right now is still inside that lie and they're still believing that mechanics are their game, what's the one thing you want them to hear before this episode ends?

Make a decision.

Make a decision that what you've been told and taught, maybe what you believed is not accurate based on some of the things that Jason and I have talked about.

Just make the decision.

Make the decision that I'm going to explore this.

You're not going to change your whole belief set in five minutes, but you might say, you know what?

I'm going to take a look at that.

I'm going to study that closer.

Bill, it's an honor to have known you all these years and to watch you from afar.

Congratulations on all your success.

Thank you for coming back on the show, episode 77, and now episode 375.

And congratulations on everything you've built.

Thanks, Jason.

You're awesome.

I love this opportunity to chat with you.

And I think you and I have a pretty similar outlook on the world.

And it's always good to connect with another fellow traveler.

Well, that's a wrap on today's episode.

If you saw a bar on your cage that you hadn't noticed before, I want you to send this episode to someone who needs to see theirs.

The gold is the lie.

As always, I am your host, the real Jason Duncan, and Jesus is king.

We'll see you next time.

Amen.